Over on everyone’s favorite Sewstagram, a heated difference of opinions has been brewing: to scoop the crotch, or to leave that little curve alone, you rascal! Depending on who you ask, you’ll get a wide ranging variety of answers, from people who use the term “scoop the crotch” as a catchall for any type of crotch adjustment, to purists who believe that a designer’s work should be trusted without fail, to others who approach with caution, and those (myself included) who have no shame messing around with just about any shape, designer be damned.
My approach to patternmaking in general tends to be more “let’s try it and see what works.” I feel the best way to learn is often experimenting, seeing how things react based on your changes, and adapting as you go. In addition, most patternmaking books readily available in my part of the world, as well as instruction available at various levels, use drafting for a straight-sized Western/Caucasian body type: while the basic principles of adjustments themselves may be the same, further refinements and changes may be needed for other body types. (You can read further into my thoughts on the matter here.)
I was frankly surprised, and quite intrigued after reading further, how deeply opinionated folks can be on the subject of “Scooping the Crotch”. Leading me to think, what more perfect time than #AllButtsWelcome, to chat with a few folks about the whys and why nots?
But let me be clear — I’m not advocating one approach over another. I think it’s so important for people to learn on their own and make up their own minds. This piece is meant to offer a presentation of amuse-bouches, so people can taste, mull over, and figure out what approach might be right for them.
But first, what do we mean when we talk about scooping? According to most fitting books, including the one I link to most frequently, this terminology usually refers to dropping the curved line of a back rise, between the low hip point and the back crotch extension, in the interest of providing more room for the butt, if I may speak so freely. Common examples of why this pattern adjustment might be recommended can include: the pant rise seam is too far up and pressing into the flesh, or if the wearer needs more length in the rise, due to a lower / flatter mass / gluteus maximus. (This can also refer to changing the shape of a front rise, however the term more commonly refers to the back in fitting books.)
I wanted to reach out to a variety of different people, with a variety of backgrounds and experiences, ranging from ready-to-wear apparel manufacturing, to patternmaking, to home sewing, and talk about The Great Scooping Debate. I made up a questionnaire about Scoops, and other sundry pants fitting questions, and sent it out to some wonderful souls, who all generously agreed to lend their voice to this article. It is my hope that by reading more on the subject, our Gentle Readers will a) understand the issue more fully, b) be able to make up their own minds where they sit on the Scooping Spectrum, and c) gain greater insight into fitting bottoms, generally.
That said… drumroll please!
Introducing our All Star Panelist Lineup:
And, our All Star Panelist Lineup Viewpoints and Bios:
Indie Patternmaker: Leila Kelleher is a patternmaker, activist, and college biomechanics professor. Her independent pattern company, Muna and Broad, centres larger bodies in its approach to fit, design, and accessibility.
RTW Industry Professional: Lendrell Martin is a graduate of Drexel University’s Fashion Design program and created his namesake fashion line for men & women with an emphasis on jackets & outerwear. Lendrell also creates made to measure items, has represented the United States in international design competitions, and has over a decade of industry experience working for fashion brands. Mentoring young men of color for career exposure and advancement is important to him and continues to support these effort through partnerships with several national organizations. Catch Lendrell on Making the Cut on Amazon Prime, starting July 16th, 2021.
RTW Industry Professional / Home Sewist Crossover: Grace Jones lives in Brooklyn with her husband and cat, and works in NYC as a technical designer for a garment manufacturer. She prolifically analyzes patterns and garments in her Instagram stories, and offers a unique perspective for the home sewist.
Home Sewist: IthacaMaven, who is continually inspired by Pantsuit Nation, has developed a fresh approach to pants fitting: a method termed #TopDownCenterOut that teaches sewers to fit pants by themselves.
First things first: who’s pro-scoop, and who’s anti-scoop?
Lelia: “Overall, I would have to say that I am anti-scoop. Or at least… anti- what I think most people’s fit issue is when they are advised to scoop. I am pro fix-that-crotch-curve though!”
Lendrell: “Pro-crotch scoop!!!”
Grace: “Ninety nine times out of one hundred, I am Team Anti-Scoop.”
Ithacamaven: “Generally anti.”
Let’s talk further about what “Scoop the Crotch” means — all of our panelists agreed that in their minds, scooping would refer mainly to the back rise.
Lelia: “I think that “scooping the crotch” means to remove some fabric from the curve of the crotch seam. I see it prescribed for “hungry bum”, when in many instances I think a crotch point extension would be more appropriate. Furthermore, “scooping” only, removes width from the pattern piece and if that’s not added back, it can cause further issues.”
Lendrell: “”Scoop the crotch” means to alter an original rise or crotch shape on a pattern. To adjust/widen the angle of the “U” shape created when you walk a front and back inseam of a pant together at the crotch, basically the shape of the rise that will sit between the wearer’s legs.”
Grace: ““Scooping the crotch” generally refers to reshaping the most curved section of the crotch in a way that deepens the curve and removes width from the pattern. The issue I have with this “method” is two fold. First, it removes fabric at the point at which the rise transitions from being a vertical seam to a horizontal seam, wherein it also turns a corner around the leg and moves from front to back / back to front. Because scooping the crotch is removing fabric at this point, it causes more strain on what is essentially a three-dimensional corner. Secondly, this “method” has been described as a solution from everything from fixing a camel toe to a low seat to a full bum. I have seen people say that something is wrong with their crotch and in the absence of certainty as to why or specifically what, they resort to scooping. The result is often a strangely shaped squiggly “L” seam. I adamantly believe that scooping cannot be a solution to every perceived crotch issue.”
Ithacamaven: ““Scooping” the crotch means changing the angle of the back rise and/or changing the curve of the crotch seam. It can be confused with a pattern alteration that involves using the crotch curve from a larger size in a multi-sized pattern.”
Why do you feel that your method is superior to the other? Are there times when people might be justified in turning to the opposite school of thought?
Lelia: “There are definitely times when I’d scoop or unscoop (change the shape of the crotch curve) but that would be to change the amount of peach cupping (a technical term!) more often, in my practice.”
Lendrell: “I don’t necessarily feel it’s superior, just that the bodies I’ve fit on mostly seem to benefit from this school of thought/correction.”
Grace: “When I analyze the fit of the crotch, I rely on logic and my understanding of three-dimensional geometry. Patterns are flat/ two dimensional, but when cut and sewn from fabric, they become three dimensional. When trying to decide if I need a correction, I first always ask myself if the correction is to the length, circumference or depth (front to back), or perhaps a combination of them. The last one (depth) is the aspect that can be hard to visualize in the flat pattern, but it is directly related the crotch extension and the curve of the crotch. The basic measurements necessary for drafting pants that relate to the crotch are the waist, hip and thigh circumference, and the crotch depth. These measurements need to accommodate the wearer’s body measurements with intended ease. Assuming that they do, then the crotch extension (the part of the pattern goes between ones legs) needs to be wide/deep enough to accommodate the depth of the body from front to back. The amount of the crotch extension is a fraction of the hip measurement; the exact ratio depends on the intended style and fit.
I think this is where pattern makers can make mistakes. If the depth of the “saddle” (the “U shape the front and back rise create that the body sits in) from front to back is not wide enough for the body, it can feel like the crotch is pinching. In this case, I would sympathize with the inclination to scoop the crotch, as this does create more space in the saddle. However, it does not create more circumference in the hip. In fact, scooping the crotch curve removes fabric from the three-dimensional corner. If the pant is already a looser fitting garment with plenty of ease, this may not be a problem. However for close fitting garments this can cause strain at that three-dimensional corner, and if the hip circumference is then too small, the inclination is to add circumference back to the outer hip, but this distorts the out-seam in addition to the crotch curve, throwing the pattern out of balance.”
Ithacamaven: “More “scooped” crotch shapes result in the garment giving the appearance of a flatter rear ends, which can be a design intent or a personal goal of the sewer. But it also confines the bias area of the crotch curve to a smaller area with consequences depending on the type of fabric being used for the pant. Sewers scoop because information suggesting that it “works” is widespread, and it seems intuitive. Some scooping also comes from common pattern alterations and blending between sizes. Ann Rowley’s well-known “flat seat adjustment” to remove sagginess under the rear end is an example of this. The alteration results in a “scooped” crotch curve (and alters the balance of the outseam). It “works” in the sense that it makes the issue [excess fabric] go away in the same way that sweeping the problems under the rug make them go away. Depending on the style and the extent of the alteration, the consequences may have a negligible impact on other areas which explains why these types of alterations are successful in some cases and not in others. As much as you’d like to, sometimes you can’t just sweep problems under the rug!”
Always, there will be patterns out in the world that are not drafted correctly. What is your best advice for how to look at / measure / visually critique a rise shape (front or back) before cutting fabric or a muslin?
Lelia: “Unfortunately, I think it comes with time and experience, and fitting garments on yourself.”
Lendrell: “Depending on the client build, using myself as example, having a higher butt projection for a guy, I typically will do a measurement cross check, along with a visual check of the shapes. So, if a back rise has too “straight” of an angle, I know it may require some tweaking in the long run. I would experiment up front if I’m going to make a muslin anyway.”
Grace: “A more relaxed style has more design ease, and this affects the angle of the front and back rise and how close to the body it is intended to be. The back rise in particular can vary a lot depending on the intended fit. Something relaxed like a palazzo or trouser have a lot of ease, and may have front and back rises that are almost completely vertical and may rely on darts and pleats to fit more closely at the waist. Contrast this with the back rise for jeans made of rigid denim where the fit is close to the body and the back rise becomes more slanted, relying on the bias stretch of the seam and the yoke and waistband shaping to fit the back side of the body attractively. Since the style of pant can influence the drafted shape of the rise, it is wise to be thoughtful about making changes to the angle of the rise and the shape of the curve.
One tip I have, is to take the pattern pieces and place the front and back inseam abutting, so that the shape of the saddle can be reviewed. Seeing the shape of the saddle can help to clarify how it relates to the shape of the body. I am personally becoming more critical of the height of the back rise in relation to the front rise. Due to the angle of my spine and waist, I often feel that the front rise is too tall and the back rise is too short. I have yet to settle on an ideal personal variance, but I’m working on it.”
Ithacamaven: “There are so many different styles of pants and trousers. In addition, expectations have changed significantly over time. I have a 1940s vintage pattern for trousers and the crotch seam line is shaped completely differently to anything you would see in a 21st century pattern, so it depends on the look one is creating.”
What are your top fit pet peeves when it comes to rise shaping? (Either on patterns, or generic people-watching / street style.)
Lelia: “My absolute pet peeve is when the rise, depth, and shape isn’t appropriately adapted for larger bodies.”
Lendrell: “Butt munching rises! (Rises that are shaped without enough scoop)”
Grace: “Mono-Butt ™!! When one scoops the crotch in something closer or close fitting like slacks and jeans, this can be a sad (in my opinion) result. By removing fabric right at that corner, both sides of the rise must pull closer together, squeezing the cheeks together into one round shape. Stretch denim can handle the strain at the corner and the wearer may not feel the strain, but the shape of the rise becomes flattened around the back and causes the derriere to look less like a peach and more like an orange. It’s tragic… in my opinion.”
Ithacamaven: “Because fitting is so personal, it can be a very emotional process, particularly when it is frustrating and seems like guesswork. My pet peeve are pattern companies who are not transparent about sizing information and sewers online who seek fit advice without showing their pattern, pattern alterations and relevant measurements.”
Knowing that a lot of fit resources don’t take into account ethnic body types, realistic average heights, or larger bodies, is there any advice you have for making various corrections addressing fuller / flatter behinds and tummies?
Lelia: “I think the most important thing, is developing an eye to understanding what different changes in the different parts of the crotch curve do to the fit. For example, someone who has greater protrusion in the front, may require a front crotch point increase (i.e. increasing overall crotch depth but only in the front).”
Lendrell: “For black people, and men in particular, increasing crotch depth and saddle width usually makes for better fit in my experience, as most black guys, like women, have higher projection (rounder butts and fuller thighs).”
Grace: “Yes. Get to know your own body measurements and retake them often. The hip circumferences are of critical importance as it help ensure that the crotch extensions are deep/wide enough. The back extension should be equal to anywhere from 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 of the back hip circumference (plus or minus ease) depending on the intended fit. The front extensions should be equal to anywhere from 1/2 to 1/4 of the front hip circumference, plus or minus ease. More relaxed styles would have a wider crotch extension and close fitting styles would have smaller extensions.
To increase saddle width or lengthen the crotch depth, I like to trace a copy of the pattern to work with. Testing with a toile or muslin is always a good idea. Slash horizontally for crotch height changes. When slashing from the back rise to the side seam in order to increase the height of the rise, try spreading it out over several slashes, so that the back rise doesn’t gain a bump in middle of the seam. To increase the length of the crotch at the extension (depth change), slash vertically down from the crotch extension and spread to increase the extension width. Depending on the angle of the rise (front or back) I try to avoid slashing through the deepest part of the curve.”
Ithacamaven: “The principles of pattern alteration for fit are applicable across body types. Understand that pants and trouser fitting are a compromise where there are two pattern pieces have to simultaneously fit the lower torso and legs, with all the components this represents (waist, hips, stomach, rear end, thigh, knee, ankle). If you understand how the pattern works to create shape, you can alter the pattern to accommodate your unique shape.”
Lastly, do you have any tips or tricks that guide you through your own fit process, when it comes to pants / trousers? Anything that might be helpful to someone fitting themselves or a friend at home?
Lelia: “I would recommend making a toile/muslin cut with large seam allowances (3/4”-1”) and using a basting stitch. You can also baste in wedges or strips of fabric as required to test your hypotheses. Doing this even a single time will teach you so much about the way a crotch shape affects the 3 dimensional shape of pants. Once you have developed these skills I think you’ll be able to see what will work for your body in other pants patterns.”
Lendrell: “For myself and clients, always sit, move, tie a shoe in what you’re fitting. Give yourself a chance to “live” in what you’re fitting in real life.”
Grace: “I like to take pictures and short video clips of myself in my muslins to see myself from all angles. I have a tripod for my cell phone and I try to get at least ten feet away from it to avoid exaggerated angles. Seeing myself from the camera lens can help to clarify what I think I see in the mirror.
I also really wear my wearable muslins. This means I have a lot of pants that are too short in the inseam, but it doesn’t hurt to just live in something for a while, to really think about how the fit does and doesn’t affect the way one feels in a garment over the course of a day.”
Ithacamaven: “Social media, like Instagram, is great as a laboratory to see all types of bodies and inspiration. The hashtags that are the most useful I find, are: #PantsFitting, #SewingPants, #PantsPattern, #CrotchCurve, #TrouserFitting, #TrouserPattern, #PatternAlterations, #TrouserBlock, #ToilesandTribulations, #FittingPants, #PantsToile, #DIYTrousers, and #PatternGrading.
Also, keep good notes on your alterations that you can go back to and learn the process. A big help for me was when pdf patterns came along, so I could play around with shapes on the computer, making in silico mock-ups and practicing 3D thinking. This process has some of the appeal of origami with the added tactile element of fabric. Pants fitting by yourself is very doable. You need the ability to be able to look at your backside and being able to do so hands-free so you can see the impact of manipulations is a huge plus.”
Here are some other excellent resources for learning more about crotch shaping, and how it affects fit:
- 7pinedesign Crotch Width: What Causes Crotch Smiles
- Fashion-Incubator How to Fix a Camel Toe
- Closet Core Pattterns Jeans Fitting Guide
- Curvy Sewing Collective Sculthorpe Pants (#FullBellyAdjustment)
- Sew Daily Determining a Crotch Curve with a Muslin
- In House Patterns The Crotch Curve
- Colette Pants Fitting Cheatsheet
And there we have it, folks! An in-depth, long form chat about all things Scoop. Many, many thanks go out to our excellent and learned panel for sharing their wisdom and time. Thank you, Leila, Lendrell, Grace, and Ithacamaven! ❤️
How about you, Gentle Readers? Are you Pro-Scoop, or Anti-Scoop?
Gabby is a technical designer, fit specialist, and prolific googler. She lives in Denver, raises tiny littles, reads, embroiders, makes, experiments, fails, learns, tries again. See her on instagram @ladygrift.
8/24/22- Edited Ithacamaven’s response to pro/anti-scoop stance due to contributor’s request.
Team do-whatever-you-want-to-your-own! A general crotch rule! 😉 I definitely scoop, but I add the width back to the hip whenever possible.
I’m a scooper within reason, too 😉 Thanks for reading!!
I would love to share a tip for the home sewist. You can measure your crotch curve or saddle by making a long, scrunched tube of aluminum foil and forming it to your body. Place it between your legs and shape it up over your belly in front and your butt in back. Carefully remove it without changing the shape. Lay it out over your pattern pieces to see what adjustments you might need. You really don’t want to just cut away at the pattern, but once you see how your wonderful body is differently shaped than the pattern, follow expert advice for how to correctly perform the alterations. I know this saddle measurement sounds a little bizarre, but it works. Pros even have a kind of ruler that does the same thing.
Thanks for sharing this! Definitely a good tip if you’d like to see what your saddle shape looks like on your body, or want to measure your total crotch length. As you say, I would be careful using it to alter a pattern, pattern rise shapes are engineered for the particular fabric, weight, balance etc. of whatever style they’re for- Grace’s comments in the article are a great pointer for how rise shapes differ by silhouette. Flexible rulers are a fun tool to play around with, for sure. Thanks for reading! 🙂
I’ve had some success with this method – (and if anyone has the Liechty/Rasband/Potberg-Steineckert fitting book there are detailed instructions in Chapter 6 on how to adjust the pattern to fit the curve). As Gabby says though, it’s not as universal as I’d hoped – I’ve got a good block for woven trousers now, but I can’t just copy the same crotch curve across for something like leggings or stretch jeans.
I just shamelessly morph a Muna & Broad crotch curve onto all non-Muna & Broad pant patterns now and typically add a smidge to the back crotch projection. That usually does result in a more scooped crotch curve, fwiw.
ahahaha amazing! love it!
Back in the days of hipster pants, I once tried on a pair of RTW jeans that looked great – until I tried sitting down and revealed a butt crack a builder would have been proud to flourish.
Moral of the story: if you’ve got a curvy butt ALWAYS check how your pants perform while seated….
hear hear!! wholeheartedly agree with this 🙌
Great information!
I am two sizes bigger at the hip – low hip – than my waist. My thighs are widest there, my hipbones have plenty of padding. And, with all of the bone-muscle-tisssue mass at the junction of torso and legs, I need a bit more ease for movement too. I noticed early on I couldn’t add extra to the outside – it created instant riding pants. I tried the scoop out method, and although a bit better in some ways, it really took out fabric right where I need more width.
After much research and messing around and messing up… the adjustment I make to the pattern is to make a straight horizontal cut from the tip of the crotch to the outer lower hip. Then I make a vertical-ish cut on the upper pattern piece following the line of the back rear seam allowance. I slide the crotch-side segment further away from the hipbone side, along the horizontal, and re-draw a smooth crotch curve. I get an instant scoop effect, because the crotch becomes more L-shaped. Depending on the pattern, for me it’s about 1/2″ to 1″ slide usually needed. On the pant leg area, I re-draw the inside pants inseam curve to join the original line above the knee. I usually have to ease in a little fullness in that area while sewing. But it works really well for me.
Excellent! I’m glad you’ve found a method that works for you :)) Thanks for reading!
Thank you for this! Hopefully it will help stem the avalanche of SCOOP!! advice that’s bludgeoning people all over the net, and often wildly inappropriate. It’s not that scooping is never needed, but it’s best on something I privately call Scandinavian butt: flat, low, cultivated by years of car abuse.
Kudos to Lendrell too for calling attention to the other scourge of the chorus of blind leading the blind – standing pants. Pants that are so lovingly overfitted that one may merely be able to achieve a slight lean against the wall a la James Dean, but if you drop the cigarette it can only be retrieved by more sloppily dressed 3rd party help.
Interesting though that nobody mentioned crotch angle as a factor of fit. That blunt U-shape flat crotch is what makes American tourists stand out all over the world. If you study the Burda pants I have clung to all these years for that reason, you can see that just like an anatomical drawing crotches are actually angled from front to back. Uncovering that is probably what’s behind the success of the various crotch-tracing methods.
Anyways, congratulations on a post filled with so much food for thought 😁
I’m glad you enjoyed the post! Crotch angle- a whole other can of worms… That probably deserves a post of its own at some point 😂 Thanks for reading!
I’ve recently had great success with scooping and and now have two trouser patterns that I love the fit on. However….this article has really clarified the reason that it’s successful is partially because I have very straight hip/waist line. So the fabric I’m removing to solve the crotch shaping is also working on a secondary problem of too much fabric at the hip! #lightbulbmoment.
Thanks for such an in depth and informative post. Really appreciate it.
I’m so glad you liked the post! 💡💡😄Thanks for reading!
I think I’m going to take on board Grace’s suggestion to take multiple pictures and videos. I’m currently fitting some pants, and trying to look at your own butt in the mirror is not easy! Haha
Solo fitting is quite difficult. I have to laugh any time a sewing book or pattern suggests asking a “buddy” to help out. I do actually have a friend who sews, but I *don’t* want them scrutinizing my butt. Awkward!!
Hahahaha, yes, solo fitting can be quite a challenge. I’ve found myself standing on chairs, peering around my shoulder into a mirror mounted too high, all kinds of ridiculous places 😂 Thanks for reading!
The realm of pants fitting is really intimidating. After watching some folks on insta face pants drafting and fitting struggles, I think I’m going to stick to my tried and true Muna and Broad patterns.
I do think pants fitting can be a challenge, but if you already have TNTs there’s no shame in sticking to them and saving yourself some grief! 🙂
I scoop and have been happy with it. I am a bit confused by this post ultimately – can you say Gabby when scooping MIGHT be the solution and when it’s definitely not?
I scoop sometimes too! I think sometimes it can be confusing to diagnose back thigh draglines, especially if there’s more than one thing going on. I might scoop rather than just extending the crotch extension or dropping the rise curve, if the pant itself is riding too high and feels like I have a wedgie: but the waist placement, inseam placement, and overall circumference of the garment are all ok. I do like a cheekier fit, but sometimes it’s too much, or not appropriate for the style of pant. Hopefully that helps 🙂
Yes thanks. I usually scoop and add to the back crotch extension the same amount.
Such an informative post, thank you Gabby! I’m bookmarking it and the articles you’ve linked to for further reading. I’ve previously “scooped” in an attempt to solve a “wedgie” problem and although it slightly improved the fit it didn’t solve the problem. I’ve added bigger seam allowances for attempt 2 so I can extend the crotch, but I still wonder whether I just have a lower angled butt and need to change that back scoop. Hmmm, I’ll find out soon!